Earlier today, Basketball Hall of Famer and KIA NBA Countdown analyst Earvin “Magic” Johnson discussed the NBA Finals – San Antonio Spurs leading Miami Heat 2-1 – on a conference call with members of the media. The NBA Finals continue on Thursday, June 13, with Game 4 at 9 p.m. ET. Game 5 is slated for Sunday, June 16, at 8 p.m. KIA NBA Countdown airs on site from The Finals at 8:30 p.m. on Thursday and 7:30 p.m. on Sunday with Johnson, Jalen Rose, Bill Simmons and Michael Wilbon.

Here is the replay of today’s conference call.

Q.  What do you think of Dwight Howard, what is best for him?

JOHNSON:  I can’t tell you what’s best for him – for Dwight Howard.  I think that he’ll probably make the best decision possible for him.

I would say that he will probably enjoy playing for Kevin McHale, because Coach McHale, not only was he a Hall of Fame player – and I feel with Tim Duncan, the best power forwards that have ever played the game – but you have an emerging superstar and a guy that you can definitely play with James Harden.

And I think that the other young players that they have, Asik and Lin, Parsons, those guys are right there too, with Dwight Howard, will take the next step as being one of the elite teams – one of the best four or five teams in the league and definitely will give themselves a chance to win a championship.

So that’s really where it is.  The Lakers have to decide what they want to do.  Dwight has to decide what he wants to do.

I don’t think you’re going to have enough money for Chris and Dwight.  I think you’re going to have to concentrate on one or the other probably, and I don’t know if they want to play together; if one will decide to take lesser money.  Now, one might decide to take lesser money and join forces there.  But if they both command top dollar, that’s going to be hard for Houston to pull off.

Q.  With all LeBron’s accomplished the last few years, are you shocked at the way he’s playing and what must he do to fix it quickly?

JOHNSON:  I’m shocked by the way he played more in Game 3 than the first two games.

I think that when you come into a series, you’re going to feel a team out. You’re going to start understanding how they are playing you.  Then you also understand what you then need to beat that team – what you have to do first as an individual and second as a collective group because he’s the best player in the world, the best player on that team.

So by that second game after they won, he should know that when you come on the road, you can’t expect Chalmers to score 19 points.  You can’t expect Ray Allen or some of the other guys to score as many as they are going to score at home.

So he has to now be more aggressive, more assertive, take more of a role in terms of scoring, and especially in the first quarter and second quarter, because those role players will follow his lead.  Not just the role players, but everybody –  Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh – because they know he is the best player.  So when he’s aggressive and when he’s playing well, that will help them to play well.

Then you open it up in terms of if he’s aggressive and he’s scoring, then it opens it up for everybody else.  So that’s my disappointment – more in the third game than in the first two, because when you ‑‑ you split, okay.  Now you’ve figured it out.  You see what Coach Popovich is doing with his defense on you.  Tim, being not only a great basketball player in terms of talent but also he has a high basketball IQ, so now he knows where to get his shots.  He knows when he should drive.  He knows where his scoring spots are going to be on the floor.

And so now, I want him to be more like Kobe or Michael than like me (laughs) in order to win because he has to score points.  And this defense and this team ‑‑ this is the worst team that Miami could play because of the fact that San Antonio is going to stick to the game plan.  They have played so well together, they are so well coached.

So now it’s not just talent that you have to play with, but you have to play with your basketball IQ, with your mind, because they are not going to beat themselves.

So I think that I want to see a gallant effort from them; not just LeBron in Game 4, but from the entire Heat team.  They didn’t look like they were in it.  I don’t know what happened.  The body language was bad in Game 3.

Q.  On shots outside the paint, LeBron went 2‑or‑14 last night, 7‑for‑30 in the series; should LeBron continue taking the shots there or try to drive more if the Spurs are packing the paint?  What’s the best approach?

JOHNSON:  You have to do a combination of the two.  What happens is he’s going to have to be aggressive on defense and try to get some boards and go coast-to-coast and then figure it out more in transition on the break in taking it to the basket.

On the half court side of it, on the offensive side, he already knows the guys that are coming over.  They are doing a wonderful job, Duncan, Splitter, of flying over and making sure, okay, he can’t get all the way to the basket.  But that’s okay.  He understands that.

So just pull up for the five‑, eight‑, 10‑footer, hit that mid‑range shot, then go under on the pick‑and‑rolls, so he knows that.  So he’s just got to get ready to knock them down.  Once you knock down a few, everything else will open up for him.  The drives will open up.  So he’s just got to knock down some shots first, and then everything else will come after you knock down a couple of those jumpers.

I remember Boston used to do the same thing to me. Go up under, so I had to start knocking down some shots.  Once I knocked down some shots, they had to say, uh‑oh, we have to do a little something different now.  But he’s got to look for it, because what he’s doing now, he’s still trying to get everybody involved.

But that can’t be the game plan, because Dwyane Wade is what he is now.  So you know he can’t give you 25 to 30 points.  Chris Bosh is not a dominant force, but he’s a great player, but he’s not a dominant force.  You’re the only dominant force, and then if you go well, then the other guys, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, will be able to play off of you.

Q.  I wanted to ask you about Tim, and I know the Spurs have a lot of work to do to get two more wins to pull this thing off, but can you talk about Tim, and that fifth championship? If they can get it, how much does that change his legacy?  You mentioned McHale before, he’s already going to go down as one of the greats, but that fifth title, how do you think that changes things, and in this generation with Kobe?

JOHNSON:  With a fifth, he’s the best power forward that’s ever played in my book because he passes McHale to me.  His legacy will enhance and increase.  We’ve already got him in the Top‑10.  You can slide him up there anywhere you want to put him, because it’s not just how ‑‑ it’s not just him winning five, but it’s how he won five.  It’s the way he played the game, how he approached the game.

And you know, I told him the other day, I said, ‘you know, you’re one of my favorite players of all time, because it’s always been about winning and about the team.’  And you know me, I’m the same way, so that’s why I love Tim Duncan.

With this fifth one, he dominates his generation.  He and Kobe would be the greatest winners during this time.  And domination‑wise, he’ll be just as dominant as any big man that’s ever played, and also be a great winner as well.  So it would just increase.  He’s made his teammates better, too.  That’s what I like about him.  He’s in that Bill Russell mold in terms of making their teammates better – doing all the little things.

If you want to compare him, he’s like a Bill Russell in terms of just the sense of being so smart.  He’s so intelligent and I just love him, I love everything about him.

And the Spurs and the NBA, we are all so happy that we have a guy like Tim Duncan, especially in this generation where everything is about me, me, me and about I, and he’s about we and he’s about the team.  He’s not about making sure he gets on SportsCenter, you know (chuckling).  I think that all he does is be a professional.  He’s first‑class and he wins.  That’s all he does is win.

Q.  We won’t know the impact of Tony Parker’s injury until the MRI results gets in; wonder how that could affect the series if it’s a serious injury, and if you recall the ’89 series and what you had to go through when you experienced a hamstring injury in the Finals.

JOHNSON:  Well, it’s devastating.  We were rolling.  We had not lost a playoff game, and you know, Byron pulls his hamstring and then I pull mine.  I cried; spent two hours in the shower.  They had to get me out of the shower because I was just crying, because you pour your heart and soul into the season and an injury could cause you not to win another championship.  So I didn’t get over that for a long time because, you know, you never get over losing championships for a while.

But, Tony Parker’s injury, it can change things for the Spurs, no question about it, because it affects his ability to now take the double‑teams that Miami has been doing, double‑teaming him; and then finding the open man because Green and all those shooters, Neal, they benefit from Tony’s quickness and his decision making.

But at the same time, I will say this:  The Spurs are so used to playing without Tony Parker, without Ginobili, without Tim Duncan. Popovich has done a wonderful job in the last couple years of making sure those guys sat and rested.

Yes, it will affect them somewhat but I don’t think that they are going to come in with their heads down or anything.  They will still come and play Spurs basketball and they will still be competitive with Tony Parker or without him.

Q.  It was revealed that it was a slight hamstring strain, so no tear.

JOHNSON:  Well, that’s good for the Spurs.  I think that between the stretching and some weight, just trying to strengthen it, I don’t know if he’ll be ready or not for Game 4, but if not, he’ll probably be ready for Game 5.  But the Spurs’ approach won’t change, trust me.  They are still going to be tough to deal with – with Tony Parker or without Tony Parker.

Q.  You’ve won a few championships in your career, five, and you lost a few others.  If LeBron loses this and he’s still two losses way from that happening, how much would it impact his legacy?  He would then be 1‑3 in the NBA Finals.

JOHNSON:  You know, it’s hard to say, because you think about a championship and not getting it done, it may take a little hit but I don’t think overall it’s going to affect him.

I think he has – what, his fourth MVP I think – and I think he still is learning and getting better and better.  I think LeBron, it may take a little hit but I don’t think much.  He can’t do it by himself; everybody else has to carry their weight, too, you know.

And so of course guys like us, we are going to say we expect them to win a championship every single time, but I don’t think you can put all the blame on just LeBron, because Chris has to step up, Dwyane has to step up.

I think what we may see is the end of this big three.  I think that things will change, no matter what happens, things have to change with that team, because everybody has caught up to them now.

So I think that that’s what I see more than his legacy taking a hit.  I just think that teams are not afraid of them.  They have adjusted to the big three. Give credit to the league because now there’s more balance, but very few teams have guys like Kawhi Leonard that can be 6’8’’ just like LeBron, and not too many teams can do what Coach Popovich is doing as well, sending their big man in his path so he can’t get to the basket.  I mean, how many teams can do what San Antonio is doing to not only LeBron, but to the Heat?  Not that many.

Q.  There’s been a lot of talk about Jason Kidd becoming a frontrunner to take over the head coaching job with the Nets.  As a fellow Hall of Fame‑caliber point guard, what kind of challenges will Jason face if he does get that job in terms of transitioning from playing to coaching, and how do you think he’ll do in it?

JOHNSON:  Well, first of all, I never wanted to be a coach, so we’d better get that clear (laughs).  I did Jerry Buss a favor by taking that job.

I think from Jason Kidd’s standpoint, I think he’ll do a great job.  We have seen Mark Jackson do a wonderful job with Golden State, and if his heart is into it and if he’s willing to put in the work, because what he won’t understand, it’s going to take more work than it did as a player.

When I did those 16 games for the Lakers, I understood how hard it is for coaches. I stayed up all day and all night going over game plans and watching film, and I couldn’t even sleep.  I’m thinking about the changes that I want to make, all the different plays I want to run against the different teams, so I gained a lot more respect for coaches than I had before.

So he’s got to understand – Nick Van Exel was our point guard and I used to holler, “He’s open, he’s open, he’s open!”

So by the third game in, Michael Cooper, my assistant coach, pulled me aside and said:  “Earvin, he can’t see like you, so you’ve got to quit hollering that he’s open, because you can see it but he can’t see it.”

And I kept saying, “Why?  He’s open” (laughing).

So I think that he’s going to have to understand that guys are not going to be able to play like him, maybe be dedicated like he was or he can’t expect everybody to be great like him, and so that will be his biggest challenge.  And then make sure he gets great assistants – probably former coaches – that can help him.  Because game planning is also tough because he has not been doing that.

So just to come up with a game plan, both on offense and defense, I would say get him some top‑notch assistants to help him with that.  Player‑wise, he’ll handle that.  The respect‑wise, he’ll get that from day one, because he’s been a winner and he’s a Hall of Famer.  He’ll get that in the locker room.  He’ll know how to deal with the egos because he’s been in the locker rooms.

But his challenge will be the game plan, day‑to‑day, and making sure that he doesn’t judge guys or expect guys to be like him or be dedicated.  Because I remember I had a player, he used to take the 15‑footer but he couldn’t shoot, right.  So I would say to him:  ‘Let’s go to the gym, let’s get there an hour early and I’m going to help you with the 15‑footer.’

Now this guy was a starter for me, and he said, ‘You know, I don’t want to come an hour ahead.’

So I told him:  Okay, if you don’t want to come an hour ahead and shoot that 15‑footer and get better at it, then in the game, you can’t shoot it.  And if you do shoot it, I’m pulling you out.

So the next game, he decided, I guess he was going to show me.  So he takes the 15‑footer, clanks it again.  I called a time‑out and yanked him out of there.  So it’s things like that where I’m used to guys going into the gym two hours before.  Guys today may not be like that, so he’s got to deal with those types of things.

But I will say this:  The Nets are in the perfect condition.  Jason Kidd is going to be a great coach, or Brian will be an excellent coach.  So you have two guys out there that have some great prospects, but I think Jason Kidd is going to be a great coach; yes, I would hire him in a heartbeat.

Q.  With players getting old, when do you know it’s time to rebuild the organization or your game is changing?  How tough is that?  Seeing guys aging and having to change the complexion of the game maybe what Dwyane Wade is going through now, can’t do the things you used to do; how tough is that to deal with?

JOHNSON:  It’s very tough. You’re still thinking you’re the same player and that you can do the same things.  But your body will tell you something’s different.

Danny Ainge has got to make a big decision about what’s going to happen now and also what’s going to happen in the future.  And then the Lakers have got to make decisions, too.

One of the most storied franchises in the NBA and they are at a crossroads of making a decision:  Do you pay Dwight Howard $117 million for the Lakers.  And then for the Celtics, do you bring [Pierce] back and try to make this last run with him and Kevin Garnett.

So I think that with Paul, he’s going into the Hall of Fame, he’s been a great face of the franchise, him and Kevin Garnett together.  I think Danny has got to sit down with them and they have to decide:  Do we make a last stand or do we try to rebuild this thing and get ready for the next five years.

And then also we need to make a decision on Doc Rivers or Doc Rivers has to make a decision, one or the other.  I remember when Pat Riley had to make that same decision a time ago and he decided to go, and I think Doc Rivers is almost in a similar situation.

I remember Coach Riley came to my house and told me he was leaving.  We talked for three hours and that was the toughest moment of my life.  And it will be the same thing if Doc Rivers leaves, it’s the same thing for Kevin Garnett and Paul and all those guys.

Wow, those are three major decisions that Danny Ainge has to make.  I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes right now.

Q.  I was curious about your take with regards to the coaches in the league and obviously I think something like six out of 16 coaches have made it to the postseason are already out, looking for work or have been hired on those other teams; when folks look at teams that have had success and made a change anyway at the coaching position, people look at that one Lakers team.  When you look back at that issue and that time in your career and you see stuff like what you’re hearing and seeing with Chris Paul and the rumors, what is your impression on those things where people look at a player versus a coach or if that’s a fair perception that’s out there?  And also, what do you think about the fact that so many teams are having so much success today but not making it all the way to a title or to The Finals, do you feel like teams are making decisions too quickly on some of these coaches that are having a franchise‑best season with their organization?

JOHNSON:  He was a college coach – our coach got hurt and he assumed a role as our coach, but unfortunately he wasn’t ready for the job, because he was just out of college and he just wasn’t ready.  He just didn’t know how to coach. So we can’t compare that with what has happened today.

Today, it’s disappointing that Lionel Hollins takes his team to the Western Conference Finals and they are going to go in another direction.  You can’t get better than Lionel Hollins, and you can’t get better with what you have; just a tremendous season.  Do I like what’s going on today?  No.

Q.  Are you able to follow the Dodger games while you’re on the air?  Last night got a little crazy.

JOHNSON:  Yeah, it got crazy — against a divisional rival. You know, Kirk Gibson is tough.  Guys get hit –pitchers are going to respond.  It’s unfortunate to be involved in that but that’s the way it went last night, and we just have to wait for the suspensions and see what happens.  But at the same time, we can’t back down from anybody.  We have to stand up and that’s what happened last night.

Q.  How were you able to watch that while you were focusing on the basketball game?

 

JOHNSON:  You just try to do two things at once.  But that’s why they have got all these handheld devices (laughs).

The easy thing is when I was in studio, we had so many monitors, I could watch.  I used to watch both the game and the Dodger game.  So I always keep up with it.  I love my team and we are starting to turn the corner somewhat offensively, and the excitement, the fans ‑ I’ve just got to thank the fans.  The fans have been tremendous.  We lead the league in attendance and it’s a fun, exciting time to be a Dodger fan.

Q.  The state of the Lakers, where you see them now and a year from now?

JOHNSON:  The state now is really just making a decision on Dwight Howard.  I know that the Buss family, Jim Buss, are interested in sitting down and trying to strategize to find out, what do they want to do.  And once they make that decision, then the next thing is Kobe Bryant, his return.  Hopefully he can come back strong and healthy.  And then they have to decide if they want to add somebody or not.

But a year from now, with all the cap space that they will have, I think the Lakers will be able to sign two or three players and I think it puts them right in position to be a great franchise for the next five years if they make the right decisions and the right moves.

So I’m excited about next summer for the Lakers.  I think it’s going to be tremendous.  The Lakers just can’t make dumb decisions right now to mess up that cap space.

Q.  With Dwight Howard moving forward, do you think they are a better team with him involved?

JOHNSON:  I don’t know, it just depends on who you put around him if they decide to sign him.  You have to have some great players around him and then Dwight Howard has to get better.  I’m not happy with this Dwight Howard, but if he gets into the gym and really works on his game and gets some go‑to moves, I think that it will be a wise decision to sign him.

But he has a lot of work to do this summer on his offensive skills.  He’s always been dominant and a great rebounder as well as shot‑blocker.  But he needs to definitely work on his offense.

And we have to remember, the game has changed a lot.  You don’t see too many Dwight Howards anymore.  Now it’s about if you have a good point guard, 2‑guard, a 3‑guard or a power forward like a Gasol and or Chris Bosh who could go inside, outside.

So, the game has changed.  The Lakers just have to make a decision on whether they feel Dwight can be the face of this franchise for the next, what, ten years or so, and they can win championships with him, as well.

Q.  And how do you see Coach D’Antoni fit?  Is he a good fit for this team?

JOHNSON:  You know, I don’t like Coach D’Antoni’s system in terms of him not coaching defense.  I just think that he has to do a better job defensively because no matter what he says, his system is to try to outscore the team, and you can’t outscore people.

Both of these teams in The Finals have proven to us that you’ve got to be great defensively if you’re going to win a championship.  And the Spurs are doing a wonderful job of displaying that.  And the Miami Heat, when they play great defense like they are capable of doing, they can beat anybody; and they are unbeatable when they turn their defense up.

So Coach D’Antoni is going to have to change his approach, because he didn’t win a championship in Phoenix; they were fun to watch, but he didn’t get it done.  He didn’t get it done in New York and he didn’t get it done there.  And he sure didn’t show us that he can get it done with the Lakers yet.

So he has to concentrate on the defensive end, just as much as he emphasizes offense, and then if they sign Dwight Howard back, they are going to have to definitely get on the same page. If he’s going to be the coach and he’s going to be our star player, they have to get on the same page and last season they were not on the same page.

Q.  If you were putting a coach into place and you were trying to talk about team chemistry, keeping Chris Paul happy and Blake Griffin and those guys, who do you see out there that’s the best?  You mentioned Brian Shaw is a great fit for some teams; do you like him or Byron Scott?  How do you see the Clippers?

JOHNSON:  I think that I like both of them.  You know, Brian Shaw is ready to be a head coach in the NBA.  He’s coached under some incredible coaches.  When you think about being under Phil Jackson; you think about, also, Larry Brown and some of the guys ‑‑ and Vogel just recently; that means he’s been with coaches who have won championships and teams that have taken their teams to the playoffs.

Byron has taken the Nets to two back‑to‑back Finals, so you know he can coach and also, he’s from L.A.  He’s worked with Chris Paul already.  So I think you’ve got two great coaches, and Lionel Hollins is unbelievable, too.

So you have some guys out here that would represent L.A., that would represent the Clippers well, and also would have respect in the locker room, and those three guys will have respect of the players.  And also they have won; they have been in big games.  They have been in playoff games, so that’s what you need.

Q.  You mentioned Brian Shaw and Lionel Hollins.  Can you describe what you see in each as a successful head coach, just beyond the fact that they have experience, the things you might know about their strategies and personalities?

JOHNSON:  Well, I think that, you know, Lionel’s personality is that he’s tough. As a player, he’s tough – he was disciplined.  He was a hard‑nosed guy, and he coaches the same way.  And then he understands how to get the best out of each individual player that he coaches but he’s a no‑nonsense guy, and he coaches like that.

So that’s why you have been able to see Memphis be so disciplined; they were physical, so they took on his personality.

And then you’ve got Brian who was totally different from Lionel’s personality.  Brian Shaw’s personality, he’s tough but I think he took on Phil Jackson’s personality where, you know, we’re going to prepare and practice. We are going to get everybody ready.

Brian Shaw, he’s going to befriend the guys, and he’s going to be their friends and he’s going to know what buttons to push with every guy because you can’t coach Chris Paul the same way you coach Blake Griffin.  What I mean by that is you’re going to coach them the same but you’re going to coach to their personality and know who they are and know what buttons you can push with each and every guy because it’s a different button that you have to push with each of the 12 guys and Brian Shaw knows that.

And then I think that the Clippers right now, they need somebody who can push them, and be tough on them and teach them how to be a championship team. I think both guys can do that but they do it in different ways.  And then both of them are always prepared.  I think that’s what you have to be if you’re going to be an NBA coach.

You have to be a coach that’s going to be very prepared each and every night, have the game plan set on offense and defense, and so you can’t go wrong with Brian and you can’t go wrong with Lionel, and Byron Scott is the same way.

Byron reminds me a lot more of Lionel.  Byron is no nonsense, but he really cares about the guys.  Him and Chris Paul had like a big brother/little brother relationship when they were in New Orleans, because Byron takes on Pat Riley’s personality; and it’s always a family atmosphere, but Byron is tough, just like Pat was tough on us, and he’ll bring out the best in every player.  And you can bet he’s going to be prepared.  That’s one thing Byron Scott has always been, as a player and as a coach, he’s always been prepared.

Q.  So if you’re the Denver Nuggets with a young point guard, a really young roster, who is your coach?

JOHNSON:  Wow, if I’m Denver ‑‑ I think Denver has to go with a guy, to me, that’s won.  Because I think that Byron Scott goes well with them.  He’s won a championship and he’s already had Jason Kidd and he’s already had Chris Paul.

So he knows how to coach point guards, and you have Ty Lawson sitting there, and he knows how to deal with that.  I think you have to go with guys who have won championships and that can command respect of not just the players –

but also the fans will say, that’s a good move, because those guys have won, especially when you come and follow a guy like George Karl. That’s a big personality, so you have to bring in a winner to me.

Q.  Miami has 48 hours to come back from last night; not to bring up an unpleasant subject, you went through something in ’85 where you had a shocking defeat and only a couple of days to come back against Boston.  How were you guys able to rebound the way you did?

JOHNSON:  First of all, you’re disappointed in the way we performed and we thought our effort wasn’t there.  And then we watched a lot of film and watched how they dominated us, both inside and from the outside.  We just didn’t ‑‑ on defense, we just didn’t guard anybody and we let them do anything they wanted to do.

And so once we came out of those couple days of film sessions and every man had to look themselves in the mirror and say, ‘hey, I didn’t play the way I’m capable of playing and I didn’t bring my best effort – it’s not going to be because of the effort we get beat in the next game.’

So I think Miami has to do the same thing.  Every guy has to look in the mirror and say, ‘hey, I didn’t come and bring the top effort I’m used to bringing and I wasn’t physical enough; I wasn’t aggressive enough’ and so, then make sure that I hone in on the game plan and be sharp, mentally and physically sharp.  That’s all you can do.

Q.  Earlier you mentioned the phrase, the end of the big three, referring to Miami.  Any guess on what Miami might look like next year, how they might shape up?

JOHNSON:  No, not really, I don’t have any guess.  I just think that you can just see the handwriting on the wall.  You’ve got to make some changes with that team.  And you have to realize Derrick Rose is coming back for Chicago and they have cap space and they are probably going to make a move to get better.  Indiana will try to get better, the Knicks will try to get better, because they are not ‑‑ they are right there, they are a player away.  The Nets will try to get better.

So you have teams right on their heels and I think that Miami understands that once they get out of this series, whichever way it goes for them.  And they just have to get better.  Pat Riley is the best in the business and he’ll make changes. I don’t know what they will be, but I’m sure that he will decide what happens.

Q.  If Tim wins another championship and has five, what do you see from Tim Duncan on the court that’s allowed him to be special over the past 16 years, and what about his game would translate back to your era?

JOHNSON:  Well, first, he’s one of the smartest players that have ever played basketball – that’s ever laced them up.  He’s also one of the most competitive guys that have ever played basketball.  And then he has so many offensive moves.  You know, the 15‑foot bank shot, he can go into the middle in the lane with either hand.  He has a nice hook shot.  He can go to the line and knock it down from the free throw line.  He can pass.  He’s one of the best big men in terms of passes that we’ve seen.

I think that Kareem was a great passer and we had the privilege of playing with him.  But he reminds me probably more like Bill Walton when it comes to passing.  So, you know, he stays within himself.  He never gets outside of himself and you never see him off balance; he’s always on balance.

And then just like this year, what I love about Tim, he said, ‘okay, I want to get lighter; I’m getting older. ‘ So he lost, what, I think 30 to 40 pounds, came in lighter this season because he wanted to make sure he was ready personally and he wanted to show the team that he was going to do, what he had to do to prepare himself for a championship run.

So he could play in this era, in my era, because the man is just ‑‑ he’s just a dominant force, and so that’s why he’s my favorite player today, him and LeBron are my two favorites.  But he’s my all‑time favorite, Tim Duncan, because he’s about winning and he’s about making his teammates better.

And he joins that group of guys like Larry and like Michael who would do anything to win; to me, he’s just unbelievable when it comes to winning and the things that he can do to affect the game.

Q.  Wanted to ask you about the Knicks.  Just like every other team that’s sitting at home, they want to be playing right now.  Given the way their roster is constructed, how close or how far off do you think they are from reaching The Finals and what do you think they need to do to get there?

JOHNSON:  Well, you know, it’s funny how you can be oh, so, close but yet so far.  I think that the two teams that they can’t beat are still going to be good again next year, and that’s Miami and Indiana.  Then Derrick Rose comes back for the Bulls.  So I see those three teams better than the Knicks.  So right now, they are sitting No. 4, to me, if Derrick Rose comes back as Derrick Rose.

So defensively, I think, you know, they are there.  They are sound, even though they can get better.  Offensively, they are a challenged basketball team when it comes to beating those three teams, because you’re asking one guy to do too much and then you have another guy in J.R. who is too inconsistent, so you don’t know what you’re going to get game‑to‑game.

I think that you have to add another guy that can score, because you’re sitting there saying, okay, Melo carried us, but in a seven‑games series, he’s going to probably have two or three bad games, so what’s going to happen when that happens?  You need another guy that you can count on that can get you points and then you can live with J.R. being inconsistent, because you know you are going to get scoring from other guys.

Q.  Do you think Amar’e could be that guy or is he too far gone?

 

JOHNSON:  No, no, his health won’t allow him to play.  We’ve already seen – Amar’e can’t play.  He hasn’t played, in, what, two seasons, a regular, long, 82‑game season and then into the playoffs, so you can’t count on Amar’e.

And as much as he says he’s going to be there and as much as he wants to be there ‑‑ because I know he wants to contribute and that’s his mind‑set – no, he can’t physically do it.  It’s not about skill‑set, it’s about physically, he can’t do it.

So you have to look for somebody else to do that.  And unfortunately for Steve Novak, those two teams are not going to leave him open.  The other teams will (chuckling) but those three teams that I’m talking about, they won’t allow him to be open, so he can’t beat you unless he’s wide open.  Shumpert, who I really love, you need his defensive presence and his athletic ability – don’t trade him, he’s a stud.  Because you’re going to have to see LeBron, you’re going to have to see Rose and you’re going to have to see guys who are tough – the Pacers, Paul George – to go against all these incredible great twos and threes at point guards that we have in the league today.  So you’ve got to keep him.

And I think who has to improve, too – Tyson – is going to have to give you a little bit more offense.  He gives you everything else, but he might have to go into the gym this summer and work some more. Say ‘what can I do offensively to help our team out?’

But you have experience, and you have savvy veterans, but now you have to improve the bench, too.  You have to really improve the bench.  If Copeland is your guy, pay him and bring him back, but also, too, now you might have to get a little younger [rather] than getting a little older (laughs) at some of those key role spots on the bench, if you can make those type of moves.  So probably that draft pick is going to be somebody hopefully that can come in and play for you.

But I would say they are, oh, so close, but, oh, so far. Do they have enough cap space to make a move; or is there a trade there that they can make? But I like what I see in the Knicks and I like that the fans are back and they have New York excited about NBA basketball and about the Knicks once again, and so just build on that.

                                                                                          

-30-

ESPN college basketball analyst Fran Fraschilla and ESPN NBA Insider Chad Ford discussed the 2013 NBA Draft Combine with members of the media. Fraschilla and Ford will contribute to ESPN’s live coverage of the 2013 NBA Draft Combine on ESPNU and ESPN2, May 16-17. Additionally, ESPN will televise the 2013 NBA Draft Lottery on Tuesday, May 21, at 8:30 p.m. ET and the 2013 NBA Draft on Thursday, June 27, at 7 p.m.

Here is the replay of today’s conference call.

Q.         With regard to four Miami players, in Larkin’s case, what do you guys project him as an NBA player?  Does he look like a backup to you or potentially more?  Then on the other three Miami kids, what are the chances in your mind of Kenny Kadji, Reggie Johnson and Durand Scott making the league at some point? 

FRAN FRASCHILLA:  I think if this was an NFL Draft, there are so many after Trey Burke, who is the obvious, I think, top pick at that position because of what he accomplished this year, just with an NFL Draft and if these guys were not point guards but cornerbacks, you’d see a lot of trading down to acquire extra picks because after Burke, there is not a ton of difference in my mind between seven or eight guys that play the point guard position.

Now I have seen Larkin, an early second rounder, and what I love about him is how much he’s improved, his quickness, his ability to shoot from deep NBA range.  He’s got tremendous pick and roll and has played for a very good coach the last few years.  So I see Shane as a guy who is going to be a guy that can make a team, maybe be a third point guard initially, change of pace guy.  I was really high on him this year.  There are a lot of guys that fall into this category, so it’s going to be a matter of taste when it comes to picking a guy like him.

The other guys, Kenny Kadji, the pick and pop big guys never really showed a desire to play a lot of post-up basketball.  But he can shoot it.  It’s the wave of the future in the NBA with a lot of these stretch fours and stretch fives.  And I think Reggie Johnson, Durand Scott two very good college players, at this point likely D League guys.  Two or three years from now, who knows.  I think they likely start their careers in the D League or overseas.

CHAD FORD:  I may be a little higher on Larkin than Fran.  I actually think that after Trey Burke goes off the board, I see a little bit of tiers after that.  I see CJ McCollum, Michael Carter Williams are probably the next two point guards off the board.  Then I agree that there’s about six or seven point guards that are right there, but I have Larkin right at the top of that group.  I think he’s a first round pick.  I think that his size works against him.  But the fact that he can really shoot the basketball, he’s going to, I think, test extremely well athletically at the combine.

He’s got a great vertical; he’s very quick with the ball.  Actually, when you start to look at some of the advanced metric numbers and you look at the point guards in this draft and look at some of those numbers, he tests out very, very well.  Actually as a top 10 player in the draft when you look at some of those advanced numbers.

I know that some NBA scouts, especially a lot of the older ones and the older GMs, they don’t pay attention to those, but you’ve got a lot of NBA front offices now that are really looking at those numbers as well, and Larkin shows really well there.  He actually showed better than every other point guard other than Trey Burke in the draft.  I think that helps his cause of being a first round pick.  So I see him somewhere in the late teens to early 20s and think Utah might be a really nice place for him at number 21 in the draft.  They’re looking for a point guard.  I’m not sure there’s one there at 14 that will excite them.  But in the 20s, I think he could be the guy there.

I think Kenny is a guy, like Fran said, that might be able to work himself into the league as a stretch forward because teams are so interested in big guys that can stretch the defense.  I think that is the biggest reason he was invited to the combine this week as to see whether he could play that role in the NBA.  I think Reggie and Durand Scott probably go undrafted, D League or overseas.

Q.         Couple players here in Philadelphia.  Khalif Wyatt at Temple, had an excellent year and a tremendous NCAA Tournament.  I don’t think there would be too many guys better than him.  And Ramon Galloway who had a great career here and also a great tournament.  What do you think are their draft prospects and also playing in the league? 

FRASCHILLA:  Both of those guys a lot, I mean, huge Ramon Galloway fan as a college player; and Khalif, by the way, had a phenomenal year.  He had six or seven games over 30 points.  Both of those guys are going to be on summer league teams without a doubt.  They both potentially can get drafted in the second round.  I pointed out during the season that Ramon Galloway and to a similar extent Khalif Wyatt are two guys that may actually, we may see them in the league down the road, if not right away.

Khalif’s issue would be his overall athleticism, but as a pure basketball player in the back court, one of the best in college basketball this year, they both could go in the second round.  Both of those guys, I could see some day when they were 24 or 25, being in the D League for a couple of years, and all of a sudden, either one of them pops up on an NBA roster.

Really an admirer of both of their college careers, but I think at this point they’re going to be fighting for an NBA roster spot and it may happen later than sooner.

FORD:  I agree with Fran.  I think he’s right on with both of those guys.  Neither player invited to the combine, which means, just so you know how the combine is put together, the NBA sends a ballot to all 30 teams with about 150 players on that ballot.  They ask every team to vote in 60 players that they’d like to see, and they basically tabulate the votes at that time with the aim of getting around 60 players there.  They know some of the international players won’t show up, so it’s 60 players minus that.

So that gives you at least a good feel, this list of 60, of what the NBA guys are looking at, who they think the 60 best prospects were in the draft.  Neither guy got that invite.  Maybe with Wyatt that surprised me a little bit more just because of the terrific season he had, the great tournament that he had, and his ability to do a lot of that against some elite teams in the tournament like Indiana, for example.  And I think he’s a player.  I think sometimes the problem with the draft is we start to pick apart length, athleticism and very specific skills.  There is a good reason why scouts do that, but sometimes there are people who are just basketball players and they overthink that, to me Wyatt is that sort of player.

He reminds me a little bit of a poor man’s Andre Miller.  I mean, Andre Miller is not a great athlete, and he’s certainly not now.  But his basketball IQ, his cleverness with the ball, are so high he can still get it done on the NBA court.  And I think Wyatt has a chance to make the NBA because of that.

Q.         I’m wondering what you guys think of Archie Goodwin and his potential as an NBA player and what you base that on? 

FRASCHILLA:  Well, first of all, I can’t wait to start talking to you about next season’s Kentucky Wildcats, but we’ll save that for another day.  If Chad doesn’t want to start, I’ll start.

I watched a lot of film of Archie Goodwin.  I think that given this draft, he’s a developmental player.  If I’m not mistaken, he’ll be one of the two youngest players in this draft.  He does a lot of things well for a young player.  He’s athletic, terrific end to end quickness.  Gets into the lane at will.  There is one and he’s actually a willing passer at 6’4″, 6’5″.

The problem with him right now, as you know and you saw this is he has a way below average jumpshot, so that’s going to scare a lot of people off.  I think he’s a kid that has really good value for a team that’s looking for a developmental player, kind of like Lance Stephenson a couple years ago, not equating the off the court stuff at all.  But this is a kid that’s very much in the developmental stage of his career, but he has NBA athleticism.  The jumpshot is the major red flag in this overall game, along with the fact that he’s a very inexperienced young player.

FORD:  I agree with Fran on that.  I just add, he’s having a rough go right now with NBA teams, partly because the expectations were so high for him out of high school, and that so many of the freshman have been successful and Calipari has had this ability to get the most out of these guys.  I think that’s been a huge feather in Calipari’s cap.  So when it didn’t happen with Archie, I think a lot of NBA scouts put that back on the player and said if Calipari can’t get the best out of you, and it didn’t feel like he developed much as a player from the beginning of the season to the end of the season, how does that bode for your NBA future playing in the D League or playing on an NBA team?

And I think that is the big question mark, not athletically, but the questions about will he develop as a player when they just didn’t really see it happen at Kentucky this year?

FRASCHILLA:  I talked to more teams and we’re seeing this too, Jeremy Lamb, who was a terrific college player spent much of the year in the D League.  Archie Goodwin is one of those guys that I can almost guarantee you where and when he gets taken, is going to probably spend a lot of his time playing in the D League in the next year or two, just because a team can work with him, give him minutes.

Chad, I don’t know about you, but it seems like the D League is becoming much more of an opportunity for the teams to utilize their young players and develop them.

FORD:  Exactly, I agree, and I think that’s where he’ll go.  His potential suggests still he should be a mid to late first round pick.  I think the question mark is:  Will he take that time; will he have the right attitude; will he be willing to be coached; and will he work on his weaknesses?  No one knows the answer to those questions, and by the way, he’s a young player, as Fran pointed out and players can mature and get a better work ethic or what have you, but there are those questions right now about him and his lack of development at Kentucky.  If he can’t develop there, will it make any difference whether he’s in the D League or not?

Q.         The other question is more generic about what the NBA teams get out of the combine as opposed to running drills, I suppose, and measuring and so on, as opposed to what they see in actual competition in college games or in other settings?

FORD:  I think one thing is this is a lot of times the first time that head coaches and coaching staff are really seeing these guys.  They are so busy during the season coaching their own teams and scouting other NBA teams they don’t have a lot of time to get out and really scout these players, so this is often their exposure to this.  And depending on the NBA team, some coaches have more of a say or less of a say in that drafting process, so that’s big.

Frankly for some of these GMs they are out extensively scouting throughout the year and some of them don’t.  So, again, for some of the GMs, this is the first time in the gym with these players and first impressions can mean a lot.

As far as what they learn from an actual scouting perspective, I don’t think there is much there.  I think the actual interviews they do with the players are much bigger.  This is the first time that they’re allowed to sit down with the players and actually talk with them, they have to bring team psychologists in, and they bring the team doctors there to check them out medically.  This is the first time for them to have that one on one experience with the players.  And I think if you talk to most NBA teams, that is the thing that they get the most out of it.

Maybe one other thing I’d say is it’s the only time that all of these players are going to be on the floor together, so you get to see relative size, relative athleticism, relative skill level compared to each other on the floor at the same time.  But as far as changing scouting reports or things like that, that doesn’t really happen at this event.

FRASCHILLA:  I think Chad summarized it, but specific to U.K., two years ago when Enes Kanter came here after not playing at Kentucky the one year that he was there, teams seemed to be very impressed with how good of shape he was in, the way he ran the floor, how hard he worked on the drills.

So it’s kind of window dressing a little bit for those people that have studied these players on a year round basis.  But this is just one more slice of the pie, if you will, in terms of putting all the information together that’s going to go into the draft room on June 27.

Q.         Arizona State’s Carrick Felix and Arizona’s Solomon Hill, what are your thoughts on them, and how do their draft chances look? 

FRASCHILLA:  I tell you, one of the things I love about the combine stuff we do on TV, Doug, as an aside first, is we all have different angles.  Chad gets great information from the teams as well as having done this for a long time.  I look at things from a coach’s perspective, how a guy would fit in.  I’ve talked to NBA head coaches this week about particular guys and how they’d fit into their scheme.  Both of these guys are what Chad alluded to before, I don’t know.  I doubt either guy will go in the first round, but when you’re picking in the second round, you’re looking for basketball players.  You’re looking for a Chandler Parsons, a Draymond Green. Both of these guys fit into the role of being really good basketball players, and I think they both have a good chance to make rosters because of what I said.

If you talk to Pac 12 coaches, they’ll tell you that Solomon Hill, many of them told me was the Most Valuable Player in that league to any one team.  You saw it for four years; you have an idea what I’m talking about.  He’s very, very versatile.

And Carrick Felix, is a guy that I talked to with Eric Musselman, the associate head coach, and I remember Musselman told me back in December, if I were coaching in the D League he would be my first pick because he’s so versatile.  Carrick is a guy, because of his length and ability to shoot the ball, his ability to defend, his attitude, he’s got his master’s degree already, he’s one of those serious minded guys that could make a roster and develop into a good role player.  Because if you get lucky in this draft and find a role player and a rotation player, you ought to do handstands.  I think he’s a guy eventually that both of those guys could make NBA rosters and at some point in their career be useful players.

FORD:  I really don’t have much more to add than what Fran said, other than to say of the two, I project Felix to be a better NBA prospect.  I really think that he could hang his hat on the defensive end in the NBA.  I really think that he has a chance to be this sort of rotation player that can come in and be a lock down defender in the league.

As you get into the second round and look at the more veteran players who have played college basketball for four or five years, you’re looking at guys that can come in and contribute something immediately to fit a major role in the NBA.  And Felix, to me, of those two players, seems to be someone who I could point to something immediately that he could come in, hang his hat on and make an NBA roster.  And I know a number of teams that are very, very interested in him, even in the early part of the second round.

Q.         We keep hearing this is not a very good draft.  I wonder your overall impressions of it and how it compares to the draft of two years ago that was also was dismissed as not very good?

FORD:  Well, when we say not very good, we have to start at the top.  Are there franchise type players at the top of the draft?  I think when you look up there, it’s easy to see that we don’t see an Anthony Davis in this draft or a Kyrie Irving in this draft.  Interestingly, much like Irving who was injured for most of his college career, we’re going to have another player, probably in Nerlens Noel who is going to be the number 1 pick, despite the fact that he has a torn ACL.

I think teams at the top are frustrated.  They’re lottery teams.  They need a franchise type of player.  They want a guy who has a chance at being a ten year All Star or perhaps a Hall of Famer someday.  That’s what you want out of the number 1 pick, and that player doesn’t exist in this draft yet.  I do think that there is depth in this draft and it’s a pretty strong international class, for example, and I think there are some good seniors in this draft.

There will be good players in this draft, but I doubt we’ll see a lot of All Stars come out of this draft or franchise changers.  To me, that makes it more exciting to cover.  Last year there were five really obvious NBA players that you could project on having, if they stayed healthy and they worked hard having great NBA careers.  It’s a lot harder to project this draft.  You know that there will be, and trying to figure out who those guys are and who are the pretenders, it’s a lot more challenging this year than I think any year that I’ve really covered since 2006 when Andrea Bargnani was the number 1 pick in the draft and that year we had a very similar sort of problem.

I don’t even think it compares to 2010.  I think that was a stronger draft  or sorry, 2011.  I think it’s a stronger draft than the 2013 draft.

FRASCHILLA:  I would add quickly, if you’ve got a pick in this draft whether you’re in the early part, middle or late, you’re looking for guys    I’ve talked to a number of teams who keep using this word, we’re looking for rotation players in this draft.  Even big guys like Jeff Withey and Mason Plumlee, teams need size.  They need bodies up front; they need a backup point guard; they need a lock down defender, like Chad mentioned earlier, to guard Carmelo Anthony for a few minutes.  And I think this draft, and it may not necessarily happen at the top.

I think there are a lot of guys in the middle of this draft and later on that are going to wind up being good, if not great, solid, NBA rotation players.  I think that’s the direction this draft flows.

Q.         Wanted to ask you about the two main Indiana guys, Victor Oladipo and Cody Zeller.  What do you see in them as they enter the draft and what do you think they can become as they go through their NBA career.

FRASCHILLA:  Chad probably talked to the teams about both, so I’ll speak about them individually.  To me, Victor is a great story because, first of all, there are certain programs in college basketball that have what I call an execution culture and a work culture, and Indiana certainly has that.  I think we all know how much Indiana emphasizes player development.

So in Victor’s case, you’re looking at a guy that’s rapidly improved over three years.  A ridiculous athlete, plays with high energy, high motor, low maintenance guy, wants to be not just in the NBA, but wants to be an NBA player.

My only concern or two concerns I have is size.  Is he going to measure out at 6’5″, the second concern is although he made more jumpshots this year than he did in his first two years, he was 9 of 39, I think, down the stretch from behind the arc.

But I love him, he’s going to be a good, solid player.  With Cody, the thing I’m concerned about with him is he’s a face up post player, who gets pushed off his spot.  He only took 24 jumpshots all year, but he’s a great runner like his brother.  And his brother was an all-rookie second team.  So Cody’s size and his ability to run the floor with energy is I think his biggest strength.

FORD:  I’m a little higher on Oladipo than Fran.  Part of it is his work ethic, and part of it is the way he’s improved.  I think that factors into NBA scouts’ decisions.  Have you worked on your game?  Are you improving every year?  Are you going to be willing to put the work in the gym that’s necessary?  And I think no one has those questions about Oladipo.  When you see how much he’s improved from year to year, you can start to project that he’s going to keep working on that jumpshot.  That he’s going to keep tightening that handle and become even better off the dribble.  Then defensively, he’s already arrived.  He’s a guy that can defend multiple positions in the NBA.

I’m a little bit worried about the size, but he’s going to have length, and he’s going to have explosive athletic ability as one of the three or four best athletes in this draft.  He has a motor.  I really feel like that’s an NBA skill, maybe one of the most underrated of NBA skills that he goes hard all of the time.

I was talking to Tim Hardaway Jr. yesterday at a workout, and I was asking him who he would take between McLemore and Oladipo because he played against both players this season and he praised both of them.  He said Oladipo on both ends of the floor was a nightmare for him.  He was a nightmare on one end because you couldn’t get what you wanted to do offensively done.  You just couldn’t do that at the next level.  And then on the other end, he was so difficult to guard offensively because it’s not like he’s going to shoot jumpshots or not that he’s going to try to create offense by dribbling and isolation.  He is constantly moving without the ball.  He’s going to be in there.  You have to block him out for offensive rebounds.  He’s everywhere.  It’s just an exhausting experience for him, and I think that translates to the next level.

So maybe I’m a little bit higher on Oladipo for those sorts of intangibles that he brings to the table.  With Zeller, I think the question is how he performs against lane.  I think that brings serious questions about his ability to play center.  And as Fran said he is being marketing now as a face the basket four at the next level, but you’re talking about a guy that took 24 jumpshots all season being marketed as a face the basket four.  I think that’s an area that he’s going to have to improve on.

I think there are some question marks about why he didn’t go back to Indiana and work on that and show that to the NBA guys as opposed to coming to the draft and basically tell people, hey, trust us.  I’m going to be able to make this transition at the next level.

Q.         I’m trying to see where the Celtics add a 16th pick, their highest pick since ’07 and the beginning of the big three era, but a lot of teams don’t seem very excited about mid first round picks.  What kind of player do they get from that pick, and maybe someone who could help like a rotation guy, as you were talking about, or are they going to have to take a developmental guy and hope that he turns into something in a couple of years? 

FRASCHILLA:  Well, first of all give them credit because, for a team that’s not had a high pick recently, they have done a very good job with those mid round picks.  In fact, you could almost say they were able to make those deals, the deal for Ray Allen because they had some assets that they discovered.  Then you mentioned guys like Rondo, obviously, Avery Bradley, Jared Sullinger.  I think they’re in a good spot given where they are.  They have a whole bunch of other issues that Chad can address with regard to the big three, but their scouting staff has traditionally done a very good job in this range.  I think they can go either way.  They can go development here with maybe a European kid, a big kid that’s maybe hanging around that they can leave overseas; or I think there are enough of those guys that we talked about, the senior or the guy that can be a rotation player that are going to be staring at him at 16 that I would tend to think that they’re going to do what they’ve always done and find the best fit for them.

I always liked what they do because for the most part they draft basketball players.  Guys that you can stick in Doc’s system and they pick things up relatively quickly.

FORD:  I’m not sure there are a lot of upside players in this draft.  But I know that Danny Ainge is fearless.  And he takes players based off of how he projects their potential out in the future, not necessarily what they’ve just done in college.  To me, Rondo and Avery Bradley are just the great examples of that.  Ainge loved them in high school, saw them in college, and felt like in both players’ cases the systems that they were in did not accentuate the strengths that he saw in them as players.  In both cases, he got a player that was much better than where they drafted them, because Ainge, I think, has a great ability to see what a player can do and can’t do and be able to divorce that from what they did and didn’t do in college.

So I tend to lean towards the Celtics taking players who may not have been superstars in college, but had shown something to them as young players that they think they can develop and get out of them.  So whether it’s someone like a Kentavious Caldwell Pope, a guy whose numbers weren’t terrific at Georgia, but when we start to look at some of the things that that he brought to the table and what he did in high school and you start to look at that team, you start to see a player that could be a lot better than what he showed in college.  I mean, to me, that’s an example of the sort of guy that I could see Danny Ainge taking a swing at.

A player like Jamaal Franklin out of San Diego State, that I think teams are misreading right now because he was asked to play power forward, sometimes even small forward for that team at San Diego State despite being 6’5″.  If you look at all the skills he has and all the things that he’s done and divorce that a little bit from the situation here at San Diego State, probably a better prospect than where he’s ranked right now.

Q.         I wonder if you could talk about the strength of this draft by position, and it sounds like the entire small forward class is basically Otto Porter Jr.; is that correct? 

FRASCHILLA:  Interesting, I would probably agree there.  That’s not a deep position in this draft.  As I said earlier, if this was the NFL and point guards were cornerbacks, you get a lot of people excited, even to the point where you could trade down and pick up extra picks, because I think that’s a deep position.  Chad and I have already mentioned guys like CJ McCollum, Trey Burke, Shane Larkin.  Then there are guys like Nate Wolters, Lorenzo Brown, Michael Carter Williams, Isaiah Canaan, the German (Dennis Schroeder), so we could go on and on.  Obviously, the Cavaliers don’t need another point guard.  But I also think it’s a decent draft for big bodies.  Not necessarily guys that are going to be good players or great players, I should say.

But I think upfront when you talk about Noel and Len, you could throw Olynyk in there, Zeller, Plumlee, Withey, couple of foreign kids, Gobert, and Nogueira, Gorgui Dieng, Steven Adams.  As I mentioned earlier, talking to my coaching buddies, you have to have big bodies up front.  It’s a long season.  So if you ask me, and Chad may or may not agree, point guards or just big bodies overall are something that teams can find in this particular draft.

FORD:  I like the question because I’m pretty sure the Cavs are praying right now that Otto Porter is there on the board when they draft.  He is a perfect fit for them.  And if he’s off the board, I do think there is a question mark there.  I think three is the position they need the most.  While we thought three was going to be stronger, we thought Shabazz Muhammad would be a guy that would be a great fit there.  I think his play at UCLA has raised major question marks whether that’s the case.

I will say there is another good small forward in this draft and people don’t really know about him, but Croatia’s Dario Saric I think has some of the best upside of any player in this draft.  But had he been in college, I think he would have been one of the most dominant players in college basketball.  I think people would have gone crazy over him as a 6’10″ three who can really pass the ball and rebound and has maybe the highest basketball IQ of anybody in the draft.

Certainly to me it would be a nice fit on a team like the Cavs, because he doesn’t need to take 15 to 20 shots a game to be really effective.

I agree with Fran on the point guard.  I actually think the two guard position might be the strongest of any in the draft.  You have McLemore, Oladipo, C.J. McCollum who is a combo one two, and Kentavious Caldwell Pope is a guy who I think should be a lottery pick in this draft.  And one of the guys who is most intriguing player to me in the draft is Glen Rice Jr., who after a couple tough years at Georgia Tech was dismissed from the team, with the D League by March was maybe the best player in the entire D League, led his team to the D League championship, was the best player on the roster.  Averaged 25 points a game in finals and ticks off a lot of boxes.  He’s long, athletic, and really shoots the basketball.  One of the best rebounders in the D League.

There are questions about his character.  He got into a lot of problems at Georgia Tech and there are questions there about that.  But talk about a player that’s proven he can play not just against college athletes but players that were older and the cream of the crop in college that did not make it to the NBA, including lottery picks that were playing there.  He outperformed all of those guys.

I think he’s an intriguing player and a player that has the size to probably shift to three as well.  Then there is the Russian, Sergey Karasev, who can really shoot the basketball, and then there is a lot of depth there at the guard position, and thought they draft Dion Waiters, so maybe that’s not as big a need for Cleveland.

But to me, that is the sweet spot in the draft along with the areas that Fran mentioned.

Q.         Fran, can you maybe go over some of the top prospects who are foreign?  Then, Chad, can you maybe talk about who you see as a sleeper in this draft?

FRASCHILLA:  The only reason I chuckled is because you’re covering the Trail Blazers, so half your team this year are guys that Chad and I have seen basically grow up.  I would say it’s a good year for foreign players to be in this draft.  So what looked like early on to be a quiet year for international guys, I could look at my list right now and see the potential for nine different players going in the first round.

So I think it’s a good draft.  Chad has alluded to a couple of guys already.  I’ve studied a lot of tape of Dario Saric who has been on the scene forever.  There are things that really concern me about him, but he’s certainly a talented player.

A guy that played really well in Portland – I don’t know if you were at the Hoop Summit, but he dominated the high school guards – was the German, Dennis Schroeder who has an awful lot of Rondo’s characteristics including the speed and the 6’7″ wing span.  He’s a guy that’s high on my list.  A kid that Chad and I have seen for a long time that’s all of a sudden started to turn the corner.  Lucas Nogueira from Brazil who is starting to play better and better in the ACB in Spain.

There is another guy I’m starting to become high on again, a kid that’s very interesting that Chad can fill in the blanks on, Giannis Adetokoubo, a 6’9″, Kevin Durant built like guy who can handle the ball.  He’s very, very raw.  He’s played basically high school basketball this year in a very poor Greek league.  Some people have compared him to Nic Batum, that’s not fair, because he dribbles the ball better than Nic, but he’s nowhere near as experienced.

Another kid who we’ve seen for a couple years that’s probably the most mature and most ready player, a guy that Chad mentioned, Sergey Karasev from Russia that’s already played in the Olympics, already playing at a high level, has a skill that really translates in his ability to shoot the ball and also has a great feel for the game.

I see nine guys, and I also think this is a year where you can draft some of these guys and leave them right where they are in Europe and let them marinate a little bit more and not have to add them to your roster.

FORD:  I agree with everything Fran said on the international side.  As far as sleepers go, some of them are moving up the draft boards.  In Portland as well, you had Damian Lillard a guy out of Weber State who started his senior season not ranked in the top 30 by virtually every team in the league, wins Rookie of the Year last year.  To me, that is the definition of a sleeper.

If you can go from one year where you weren’t ranked in the top 30 to being the Rookie of the Year in the NBA, that is a pretty impressive leap.

I think Kentavious Caldwell Pope is maybe one of those guys out of Georgia that can really stroke the basketball.  An elite athlete that had no help at all on that Georgia team, which meant he took a lot of bad shots, and his shooting percentage may be off what he really is as far as a shooter and a scorer because of the situation that he was in.  I think Shane Larkin may be a guy who will look back on and look at Miami’s run this year and start to attribute a lot of that to the play of Larkin at point guard.

He surprised a lot of people this year with how well Miami played.  I think a lot of that had to do with their point guard, and to me, he’s still got a lot of upside there.  I think Reggie Bullock out of North Carolina is a guy that got lost in the shuffle a little bit and has great size and can really shoot the basketball.  I think he can really defend.

I think he got lost in the shuffle a little bit on the disappointing North Carolina team this year.  But often I felt like he was the best player on the court.  Then if you want some super sleepers, I think Mike Muscala at Bucknell is a 6’11″ guy that put up great numbers this year, but played at Bucknell.  He’s a guy that could potentially help himself the most at this combine if he comes in and really shows that he belongs with the other bigs there.  Teams are always interested in bigs.

Then a guy that’s not even invited to the combine, D.J. Stephens out of Memphis.  I think he is the best athlete in the draft.  He’s the most explosive player, and I think he has one of the best motors of anybody in the draft.  He’s completely unskilled offensively.

But if you’re talking about rotation players and talking about a guy who could come in off the bench; defend multiple players, be physical, athletic, block shots, grab steals, throw himself all over the floor for 15, 20 minutes a night and energize a team and a crowd, that, to me, could be D.J. Stephens.

FRASCHILLA:  I would just add one, what I would call “hide in plain sight sleeper”, and that is a kid I’ve studied and seen in person this year who actually dominated the ACC on a bad team, and that is Erick Green of Virginia Tech.  He not only led the country in scoring, but he’s a highly efficient player.  He is a kid that makes tough shots.  He’s a willing passer, 67% at the rim, 40% from three, nearly 50% from two.  And the only major question mark I could see with him is his narrow frame.  Defensively he must improve.

But when we talk about all these good point guards, and again, we’re only talking about guys that hopefully will be rotation guys, maybe a few starters.  But to me, Erick Green is a guy that dominated in the ACC the last couple years, and the beauty of Erick Green is he averaged two points a game as a freshman.

Q.         I wanted to ask if you think that Vander Blue of Marquette will be drafted?  And before he made his decision, if you had been advising him, would you have advised him to come out? 

FORD:  I think he’s one of the best athletes in the draft.  I always think he had potential, even back to when he was with that Team USA and under 18s, we saw it there.  I think he blossomed this year.  That started in Maui and culminated in, I think, a great run for him and Marquette in the tournament.  And to me, he’s an NBA player because he has NBA athletic ability and he can guard multiple positions.  I think that’s what he will hang his hat on at the next level.

As an offensive player, I think he’s still a work in progress, and we saw a lot of improvement.  I was really surprised he was not on the initial combine list.  I thought he deserved to be there.  I was really happy when the NBA came back and added him as one of three players that they decided to bring in.

Now could he have used another year at Marquette?  Of course.  I think offensively he’s still got a lot to work on and has consistency on that jumpshot and continuing to improve his handle.

But as far as whether I think he’ll get drafted this year, I actually think he will.  I think he’s one of the best 60 players in this draft, and I think he’s a guy that could stick in the league.

FRASCHILLA:  Not much I disagree with there.  I’ve talked to teams who really have said they’re struggling to find 45 guys they would draft.  Vander, to me, is one of those guys with that athleticism of an NBA guard.  He’s one of about 30 guys that I think can make a team where he’ll end up in France.  His range, I think, is there.

If you told me next November that he stuck with the Utah Jazz, it would not shock me at all.  He’s been in a work culture, as I talked about before, with Buzz Williams, so I would hope that he’s matured over the three years that he’s been there.

The biggest concern I have with Vander, quite frankly, and you’ve seen it for three years, he’s got to make an open shot.  But as far as athleticism, ability to get to the rim, I’m sure his work, and the work ethic that Marquette has rubbed off on him, easily could be drafted in the second round, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he makes the team.

Q.         Hi, guys, I wanted to ask you about a few Canadians.  Myck Kabongo coming out of Texas with the 11 games this year, where do you see his prospects in this draft?  And Anthony Bennett, what impact do you see the shoulder surgery having on his draft spot? 

FRASCHILLA:  Okay, well, just quickly on Anthony, I don’t think it’s going to be a factor at all.  To me, I actually have him rated at the top of my draft board because of his tremendous rebounding instincts.  He’s got two great (skills) – I shouldn’t say great, in this draft there is nobody with any great skills, but shot blocking.  He is an above average rebounder and an above average shooter.  So I don’t think it’s going to affect Anthony from going anywhere in the top three four or five.

With Myck, I’ve watched and seen Myck since he was 16, coached him at Nike camps.  You know, Myck’s greatest strength is that he has great end to end quickness.  He’s a developmental guy.  You’re going to have to teach him how to run a team, quite frankly, and he doesn’t shoot the ball well.

So, yes, there is athleticism there.  There is a maturity evolved in Myck’s game.  This year didn’t help him much, obviously.  But if you’re drafting Myck Kabongo, and I know some people think even at the end of the first round, I think you’re taking a developmental point guard and you’re going to roll the dice with them.  I think there are safer point guards to take in this draft, but there are a number of people with terrific quickness and end to end athleticism.

FORD:  On Bennett, I agree with Fran.  I don’t think the rotator cuff surgery is going to affect anything.  I thought it was a smart move by his agent to go ahead and just do it now.  So when the NBA doctors do look at him, they’re already looking at the process of if the surgery’s done and how is he healing, as opposed to sometimes doctors can get very conservative when they see an injury because they don’t exactly know what they’re going to get until they get inside and start doing the surgery.  So that can scare them off.

So I think it was a proactive move by his agent to go ahead, have the surgery now, help doctors see that it wasn’t that big a deal and already get a chance to look at how the rehab’s going.  I think that means that there would probably be zero hit to his draft stock at all.  I agree with Fran that to me he’s a Top 5 pick in this draft, and could very well be the best player in this draft.

Then on Kabongo, I agree with everything that Fran said.  I think it’s an unfortunate situation for him.  You understand why he left Texas after everything that happened with the NCAA this year.  He picked a bad year to do it, given that he didn’t have enough games to prove to NBA scouts that he was better than the freshmen.  As Fran said, there is this huge scrum of point guards, some of them veterans, all sorts of different things that bring things to the table.  D I athleticism, there is Pierre Jackson, and he’s much more proven than Kabongo is in the same conference.

You start to wonder where does he fit into this whole process now?  People really liked him out of high school.  Really didn’t like him much after his first year at Texas, and then this whole year was just a wash for him.  I think he’s in danger of flipping to the second round, and unfortunately for him, teams seem to be less committed in the second round to really throwing all of their resources behind the developments they do in the first round.  So he’s in a dangerous position.  He could end up being a good NBA player, but the developmental curve there is still pretty high.

FORD:  Just want to hit another Canadian there with Andrew Wiggins right now.  Pretty soon these Canadian beat writers could beat their chest.  There is a chance in five years the Canadian National Team is going to really be the main competition to Team USA and the Olympics and World Championships.  Their talent levels are just off the charts now.

FRASCHILLA:  And I’ll throw in, you mentioned Andrew Wiggins and I’ll raise you and mention Trey Lyles who is next.  Not quite as good, but certainly Canadian hoops in the States right now is sky rocketing.  It bodes well for their future of international competition.

Q.         Chad, regarding Michael Carter Williams I was playing with your draft lottery on your website, and you have him going to Sacramento as long as Anthony Bennett and Trey Burke are off the board, but nobody else is going.  What is going on with Michael Carter Williams and what are teams going to be looking at over the next couple weeks in Chicago? 

FORD:  What I’m hearing about the team and particular prospects they like, and what I’m hearing all year, actually the closer I get to the draft, the more NBA teams start to shut up and not talk as much about it because they don’t want to signal their intentions.  Part of that is listening to those teams all year and looking for teams in that range that need a point guard.

The interesting thing about Michael Carter Williams is it seems to me that scouts either love him or hate them, and there is very little middle ground.  Some scouts feel like with his size, his athletic ability and his ability to see the floor, those are unique point guards that come to the league that have that size and see the floor like Michael Carter Williams can see the floor.  And they think he can be a Sean Livingston sort of point guard.  And before Sean just decimated his knee many people thought he was the best player in that draft year he was drafted, so that’s a high compliment.

The other scouts may say his decision making can be poor and his body language can be poor.  You have to remember he really, really struggled to hit open jumpshots this year.  And they feel like the whole point guard Michael Carter Williams thing is a bit of a gimmick.

And don’t even get me started on the guys that really struggled to protect Syracuse players because they play such a unique system there, they struggled to see how those guys translate to the next level.

So you have some teams that need point guards who just aren’t high on him, and don’t see him as a fit in their system.  An example of that might be a team like Utah who really wants a point guard who can really shoot the basketball because of the bigs that they’re throwing out on the floor and a point guard that can really space the floor for them.

Other teams that maybe just aren’t as high on them and there are other teams that think he’s a Top 5 pick.  So every draft it comes down to does the right team in the right place, and right now we’re trying to figure out what that is for Michael Carter Williams.  The talent is there no question.  It’s where he fits on the team needs and team preferences for types of players that I’m struggling to find where he fits right now.

I know his agent thinks that I’m insane to have him, I think right now, I have him projected outside the lottery.  I think Dallas is a very good possibility for him at 13 and Sacramento is a good possibility for him if Anthony Bennett is off the board.  Other than that, I just haven’t identified the other teams where I think he is a fit and they’re high on him.

FRASCHILLA:  Let me follow up on one thing about Michael.  So much of it is it’s a different game at the NBA level.  The spacing is so different, and the pick and roll is so important to that league.  I asked one coach this week what do you do with a guy that can’t shoot in pick and roll situations?  And he said, it’s tough because the floor really shrinks on you.

That is his biggest weakness right now is keeping defenses honest.  If I were Michael Carter Williams, I’d get every video I could of Ricky Rubio because Ricky really can’t shoot, but still finds a way to get into the lane in the NBA.  So it’s not so much is he a talented kid?  Of course he is.  But some coaches don’t want a point guard that can’t make shots and keep a defense honest particularly in screen and roll.

Q. I was hoping that you guys could tell me a little bit about the games of some of the top drafting candidates in this draft.  I was also going to ask have you heard any progress of the development of the guy the Warriors took in the second round last year, Ognjen Kuzmic. 

FRASCHILLA:  He’s a big kid.  I didn’t follow him this year, quite honestly.  I didn’t think he was a terrific prospect, as I recall.  I think if I’m not mistaken, he’s 7’1″, 7 foot or 7’1″, so I did not follow him very much once he got drafted.

This is a tremendous draft and stash year because while I would expect a couple guys get drafted internationally in the first round to stick on rosters, there are some great candidates to draft if you really like him and leave him overseas.

The one kid I mentioned earlier, who I’d love to know Chad’s opinion or at least what teams are saying – the Greek kid, Giannis Adetokoubo, who I mentioned earlier.  One of the rawest, but best raw athletes in this draft in terms of nobody really knows the level of play and how good it was.  But yet everybody’s intrigued comparing him from Scottie Pippin to Kevin Durant, to Nic Batum.  This kid is in the infancy stage of his career, but people are really intrigued by his upside.  So he really comes to mind.

I mentioned Nogueira before, who is the ideal draft and stash guy.  A 7 footer in the Javale McGee mold who can run the floor, block shots, protect the rim but still needs seasoning.  And Alex Abrines who is a 19-year old from Barcelona who is 6’6″ and who reminds me a lot of Rudy Fernandez in terms of the way he plays the game.  I think he’s a guy you could draft towards the end of the first round and stash him over there.

Almost all these guys that go in the first round, there is a possibility of a team stashing them and leaving them overseas.  Any one of the five, six, seven or eight guys that end up in the first round who are international players are potentially going to be left over.

FORD:  Just to follow up on Fran, first of all, on Kuzmic, I followed him a little bit this year.  He ended up averaging about 7 and a half points a game, and about six rebounds a game.  You know, in the Spanish league, which given his age isn’t bad, it certainly doesn’t scream NBA player, but isn’t particularly bad there.

But he got minutes and he’s been playing over there, and that’s all you can ask about these stash prospects is put them in a situation where they can continue to develop.  Fran asked about the Greek kid, Giannis.  What the NBA scouts are saying is they throw their hands up in the air and say who knows.  He does fit the physical profile of an NBA player and he is quite skilled.  But when you talk about the Greek second division of the league, you’re talking about high school level, maybe D III and college level, and even then not necessarily dominant in that league.  Playing well but not necessarily dominating.

So it’s very difficult for scouts to gauge talent when there isn’t other talent to compare it to around.  They’re not familiar with the second league in Greece.  They’re not familiar with the other players or quality of players.  They certainly, as you can imagine, not familiar with the athletes that you’d be seeing at the NBA level.

So when you have elite college players who talk about the jump from elite college programs in the NBA, no matter how good they are, they’re blown away by the speed, the power, the athleticism at the NBA level.  They’re all blown away.

Having Giannis come from Greece to the NBA, I can’t even imagine what that transition would look like.  One NBA GM who I really like said, look, he’s not even ready for the D League right now.  He would be blown away if they just stuck him in the D League let alone the NBA.

So a team that drafts him, they’re looking at multiple years probably over in Europe of trying to develop, and get on the first team in Greece and eventually get minutes over there and then to the D League and then to the NBA.  Teams, by the way, are also reluctant to bring a guy over and take him on a rookie salary that would be over a million dollars a year to go play the D League multiple years.

One year, yeah, they’ll live with that, but multiple years over in the D League is an expensive proposition to them when their clock is ticking on their rookie contract and they have to make a decision on the player when he hits free agency soon.  So these are all complicating issue for him.

Where he goes, I’ve had teams talk about late lottery.  I’ve had teams talk about late first round.  I’ve had teams talk about he’s an ideal second round candidate to stash and leave over there and you don’t have some of the same contract restrictions when you bring them over there.

He truly is the mystery player in the draft.  I wish he was here at the combine because I think that would have helped solve some of the questions for the NBA teams.  But I’m not sure that would have been in his agent’s best interest, because it actually helps him right now to be the mystery guy, to be the guy because teams are fed up with all the other players that they’ve overscouted to say, well, maybe, maybe someday this guy will make me look like a genius and they draft him.  He truly is the biggest enigma of anybody in the draft.

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